I am sure this article has been shared before, however I wanted to have a look at this topic.
The articles short summary is this:
All 25 car brands we researched earned our *Privacy Not Included warning label – making cars the worst category of products that we have ever reviewed
I am currently driving a 2014 Ford Fiesta which just has a radio with a CD player and Bluetooth. I do not need more than that in a car.
The reason I am looking at all is that that the Fiesta does not belong to me and the friend owning it will be moving out in a bit, so I kinda need another one.
There seems to be one brand that is not as bad as the other ones (but still bad): Renault; mozilla’s review…
Maybe I will have a look at their cars.
What do you guys think? Stick to older used cars and not use an EV or look at which of the manufacturers have the least bad privacy policy?
My French car asks me at startup if I allow it to send my data. The default settings if I don’t answer by 10 seconds is the last one, i.e. “no than you”. Thank you EU.
None of this has anything to do with the car’s powertrain. Regular internal combustion engine cars are just as bad as EVs in this regard.
Nobody said it does. OP said “buy an old car without all of this shit even though it won’t be electric or suck it up”
There is a tiny number of cars available (mainly certain years of Nissan Leaf afaik) from right when batteries were getting kinda good but this stuff wasn’t all added yet
The OP would rather an EV which tend to be newer. ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
I have a couple vehicles that fall into this category. 1980 Mercedes 240D, and a 1980 Honda XR500. Dead simple vehicles. The Benz will happily continue running with zero battery. The XR only requires a whole 3 wires to run, and since it’s kickstarted, no battery is required at all.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes. Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil. All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway. The drivers seat will lean outboard and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC. The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes.
You. I like you. Know any good parts sources besides Pelican?
Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil.
I’m aware. It has nearly 500k miles on the odo already. Valve adjustments are easy. Though I’m curious - does the engine need to come out to change the chain if it’s too stretched? There’s plenty of room…
All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway.
Mine is a base model with crank windows and manual climate controls. The door locks barely work as it is; I’ll be replacing them anyway though.
The oil pressure gauge is also leaking a bit. Any tips on an electric replacement? Or should I just fix what’s in there?
Oh! Believe it or not, the AC still works. Barely. But it works.
The drivers seat will lean outboard
Too late.
and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC.
That’s good to know. What should I look for before this happens?
The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
This one seems to drive quite nice for its age and miles. Though we shall see how it does
AC in a 240 huh…you have to block off time in Outlook for onramps.
I still have my gasser W116 (also with crank windows lol) but havent ordered parts in forever. I think I used to use Peachparts sometimes? And EBay of course.
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks. Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Timing chain can be done in the car. Get the manual on CD, shows you everything.
Keep mechanical oil gauge, electric ones are junk. Bet you anything the flare fitting on the back is just loose. Screw it down, or replace the gauge with another one.
You’ll probably get a keybhang or two resolved by wiggling before your key gets stuck. Keep a light key chain and I think a little graphite lube in the lock helps, but you can preemptively just replace it with a new cylinder from Mercedes, keyed to your code. Or you used to be able to. At any rate a hung key is bad juju.
Right on, thanks!
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks.
Good to know. Already got a mityvac specifically for this car. The system definitely has a few leaks, I can only get maybe two lock cycles in before it’s done for (with the locks that still work, anyway)
Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Forgot to mention - it’s a manual transmission 😅
Oh lucky you, those are awesome.
His current car is 11 years old and you can easily find 11-years old EVs.
You’re saying OP might want to trade his 11 year old car for a 12 year old ICE.
This is a lose-lose-lose.
- New cars don’t respect people’s privacy.
- New cars cost more due to the extra camera/sensors/compute/connectivity necessary for tracking.
- Less people buy new cars due to increased cost and tracking. Instead drive older, more polluting cars for longer.
The word is lose.
Maybe 3 of the 4 wheels need tightening?
So it’s a loose-loose-loose-tight situation when it should be a tight-tight-tight-tight situationYes exactly. Thanks for backing me up :)
Thanks, fixed. Sorry for being a bit too loose with spelling
I have an older Nissan Leaf in Australia. While I’m sure the car is trying to send telemetry, it only has a 3G modem, and the 3G network has been switched off for all of Australia.
If you have a newer car, it may be possible to remove the telematics fuse and ignore the related DTC.
I bet the authorities can still pick up the telemetry with satellites. Of course, they can also just see the car.
The 3G transmitter is not able to send signals to satellites.
It’s definitely designed to be able to send signals to satellites, and there are satellites designed to pick up signals from devices that aren’t designed to reach them.
But, they can also just see where your car is going visually, and get any audio/video from inside with your phone that connects directly to cell towers, so you might be right that no satellite is actually ever spying on your car’s 3G modem.
It’s definitely designed to be able to send signals to satellites
Do you have any source for that? Not that I don’t believe you but I can’t find anything on this
The sources are just people who know saying it, like me. The designers wouldn’t publicly admit it or anything.
Cell phone range is impacted by ground obstruction, the curvature of the earth itself getting in the way, atmospheric effects
The closest satellites are about 160km up, where a 3G transmitter can reach when it’s looking straight up with no Earth and less air in the way
The companies that designed the 3G standard and manufactured some of the phones also do military contracts for stuff like the radios in spy satellites, they knew what they were doing
It also stands out as intentional because making the range go beyond the curvature of the earth is just crippling infrastructure, wasting battery and putting millions of people in danger (can’t call 911 with a dead phone)
Lower-power devices with mesh networking would have made more sense with the powerful processors and high usage phones were getting by the middle of the 3G era, but the “cellular” design is much more convenient to monitor
Or just remove the antenna. Bonus points it might even burn itself out!
I bought a used Chevy bolt EV, for now I’ve pulled the onstar system fuse which kills the telemetry and GPS+cell antenna. No tracking with no power, it’s my car and my battery so I decide what gets my power.
I’m not interested in letting any of these companies screw me over behind my back regardless of who is “less evil,” but I’ve gotten so used to the convenience of EVs that I won’t do without one.
I use my phone for navigation and music/podcasts and that still works just fine.
Might at some point look at a more sophisticated way of doing this like removing just the onstar module or terminating its antenna, but for now it’s fine.
I’ve pulled the onstar system fuse which kills the telemetry and GPS+cell antenna
If that is possible in a european car that would be exactly what I’d want to do as well :D
I bought a used 2017 Bolt a few months ago and I love it. It is the most practical car I’ve ever owned and it’s nice to drive.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the sensors store data locally and then get uploaded to the Internet when you take it to a mechanic, who plugs your car into an internet-connected computer
Ehhh that’s a bit of a blanket statement that applies to dealers: I promise you my indie guy who does my tires and inspections will not be plugging anything in. Everything else I will be doing anyways.
He would be a bad mechanic if he didn’t plug it in to get a readout of the computer on your car during routine maintenance
He would be an exceptional mechanic if he made sure to only do this on an airgapped machine.
That’s simply not how it works. The only “computer” system that is required and widely used is still obd-II which has been around since 1996. Thats all the independent shops diagnose with whether the car is 1999 or rolled off the lot yesterday. Any other computer system on board is dealer specific and a specialised system NOT accessed during regular work. Quit spamming misinformation.
It’s not required. These surveillance systems and data profiteering are very optional.
this is just blind undirected cynicism. please show your work. I hate our surveillance state too, but if you misidentify the problem you will push away people who understand the situation from your cause.
Literally read the article that you’re commenting on
Your assumption about how datalogging works is incorrect.
In short, sensors almost never store local data which doesn’t even matter if those sensors are depowered. There is absolutely nothing to be afraid of here.
So yeah, sensors do not locally store data except in very rare and high-cost cases not found in basically any consumer electronics. There needs to be a datalogger or handoff to a datalogger of some variety. While the ECU or MCU of a vehicle logs data, there’s not a permanent memory of every action you’ve done with the car because it literally doesn’t have enough memory. Doubly so if some of the sensors such as GPS are physically unplugged or depowered as in my case.
So, no amount of malicious action from a dealer would extract location or even more basic data from a car. The only thing they’d see are the basics of the ECU or MCU which has been common for every car produced since OBD2 became… a thing.
I’ll also add that an easy solution to this is not to go to a corporate dealer (all Chevy dealers are shit anyway to be fair). While the independent mechanic might have to buy proprietary diagnostics from the manufacturer, they aren’t going to re-enable systems like GPS or telemetry if you tell them not to because they care about you coming back and thus have an incentive not to fuck you over.
Sounds like you’ve been out of the industry for a while.
The sensors don’t store the data. The storage does. How do you think the entertainment system remembers your music history? Its stores it. And uploads it. And they sell it.
So your car won’t track you but your phone will. OK.
That was my first thought too, but some people are moving to more privacy focused phones like grapheneOS, and other ROMs, or even Linux phones.
Besides, reduction in the number of people tracking you is still a positive thing.
I had been actively looking forward to the Slate truck (even though I don’t want a truck) for this reason - an EV with modern drivetrain but no BS electronics or telemetry. Unfortunately the price has gone from about $20K - a price appropriate for it’s minimalist approach - to “below $30K” and it’s not due out for another year, so who knows how it will pan out.
The toyota champ looks like a nice simpe ute but fuck knows when or if it’s happening.
Toyota is def gonna be a surveillance nightmare
I don’t own a car and am not a fan of most modern “features”, but, I must say, I’m quite fond of adaptive cruise control. Setting a follow distance and just cruising for long drives is far better than pumping the brakes every 5 minutes for folks mucking up passing lanes or trucks attempting to overtake on lane-limited roadways. I bet if everyone used it, traffic snakes wouldn’t be such a nuisance.
I’d rather never own a car, but if I needed one, I’d be hard pressed to sacrifice privacy for that sweet adaptive cruise. Of course, network connectivity isn’t required, so perhaps there will eventually be options.
In case you actually ever need a car and want ACC:
Adaptive cruise became available in the 1998 Mercedes-Benz S-Class and in the early to mid 2000s expanded to executive cars of different marques and then later on, towards smaller/cheaper cars.
There absolutely are cars you can get that have adaptive cruise, that don’t have any network connectivity beyond the built-in cellphone (because they used to do that) or Bluetooth to connect your phone.
Thanks man. I figured there was probably a cross-section of a few cars that fit the bill. I would wonder about and need to confirm functionality. When I rent, I often receive Corollas, and I do like Toyota’s implementation. The one’s I’ve driven brake gracefully on lane switches and in finding the follow distance. I’ve yet to hit a situation, even amongst torn up construction areas, where the assists get janky.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard from others, with older cars, who won’t use the ACC because of perceived jank.
It definitely differs between implementations. I hear Distronic Plus on a W212 Mercedes (so 2009-2016 E-Class) was fairly good for its era, with smooth braking, but I’m biased because pre-touchscreen-hell Mercedes cars are something I have a soft spot for (so pretty much anything made before this decade, really - they kept touchscreens out of the equation for longer than Audi at least). On W211s you could get regular Distronic, which didn’t come to a complete stop, it was only meant for highway use. Also all these systems were optional back then, so you can’t buy cars blindly. Hell, I bought a 2019 C-Class being pretty sure it had ACC and it… did not.
I unfortunately can’t give any advice on Japanese cars, I’ve only owned a Subaru. The ACC in that was a bit janky, though it never hit anyone so it definitely worked. Most of the time. It complained about lack of sight fairly often, since it was a camera based system unlike the radar or lidar systems most seem to use.
I have a 2014 Chevy volt. Not a full EV, but used ones are affordable and the 3g cell modem no longer works.
We get 30-38 miles per charge depending on the outside temperature which covers most of our day to day driving. It will charge from a regular wall outlet (120v at 8 amps) in 12 hours. The ICE engine gets an oil change every 2 years since it gets rarely used.
FWIW I did both a GDPR request and a Lexus Nexus data request on both of my Mercedes and they had zero info on me. My buddy did the same and same results. I’m not sure they are collecting any data even though they say they may, or they’re actually honoring the opt out setting. Either way I’m not worried about my Mercedes cars. My brother requested his data and his Toyota and Lexus had a LOT of info on him.
We need more development of open source cars
I’d love this, but I doubt that it is ever going to happen. Open-Source-Hardware is not as widely spread as open source software which is also still a niche. The big difference is that you can easily develop OSS on your own in your free time, but with hardware its a lot more difficult. And then think of all the parts necessary to build a car and then again all the certifications to actually get it on the street and after that the question of liability in case of accidents…
I think the real obstacle isn’t even the regulations but the safety systems. The various US DMVs can comprehend things like scratch-built or kit cars, but the level of engineering to make a thing that can even sometimes decelerate a person from like 60 to 0 without killing them more with exploding airbags is several levels above that required to make a thing with wheels that drives forward.
So you can build and probably even drive a car from plans you got off Github, but if you crash it it will kill you.
I’d be happy to have a car that goes max 50 kph
The need is an OSS ecu that drops in present cars.
Speeduino is a thing. Not exactly drop-in, but it’s a start.
All it takes is one company to do open hardware. Then all the other companies will use it, because its cheaper for them without having to do the initial r&d.
If it’s licensed properly, then all subsequent customizations by these other companies will get shared, so the project just gets better and better with time.
Interesting point you bring up.
The inner workings and overall principles of the internal combustion engine are well-documented. There are also open-source engine controllers - Speeduino comes to mind. Electric motors and their controllers are also well-documented.
People build kit cars all the time, enough that many U.S. states actually have specific standards that a kit car must meet in order to be road legal; hilariously, these standards are often far lower than vehicles manufactured by an OEM.
We don’t need a foss ice to have open source cars. Even setting ice aside, as long as the BOM includes easy to find, off the shelf components, its still a Foss project
What do you guys think? Stick to older used cars and not use an EV or look at which of the manufacturers have the least bad privacy policy?
Stick to older cars. Learn the way of the wrench. End.
Automated license plate readers (both fixed abd mobile) means old cars are tracked as well.
Right, but that’s not relevant to the topic. We’re talking about the car itself collecting data and sending that to the manufacturer.
I bought a used Chevy Bolt, then disconnected the antenna to put a dummy load on the OnStar transmitter. Never told it my Wi-Fi password. It can’t connect to the Internet unless I park it next to a cell tower, unless I pay for OnStar, which I refuse to do. I only use CarPlay so it can’t even hope to use my phone’s Bluetooth tethering (not that it seems capable).
Fortunately, Chevy’s only OTA infotainment update was to remove the video player, so I’m not missing much. Unplug the power cord and drive.
It’s full of sensors and cached locally. When you take it to the mechanic, they connect it to a computer with internet access, where all the data is uploaded. Sorry.
You have to neuter the sensors, not just the antenna
That’s definitely a possibility, depending on the year and make. Now you’ve given me something to think about.
I’m confused here, if cars are not connected to the internet how else are they broadcasting the data? Or is it collected during maintenance and if so what do mechanics care about your sexual activity.
Edit: Reading through the comments there are 3G/4G/LTE/5G bands in the cars? Who is paying for the cellular service then?
I don’t drive nor care about cars so this isn’t my wheelhouse obviously.
Correct me if I’m wrong:
Like a “Smart” TV you can just not connect the car to the internet and ignore all the features requiring a SIM card or phone connection.
I’ll just use a phone mount and ignore the infotainment shit entirely besides offline features if it comes to that.
I’ll pull the dashboard apart and wire in a dumb radio/mount it somewhere.
I’d even find and destroy the antennas if I have to. I’ll buy 3rd party ECU if I can’t. Exhaust all options.
I can drive old cars too but eventually that gets unrealistic and hard to maintain.
This is just incorrect, sorry to break the news. Most modern electric cars are hardwired to phone home. In most models the surveillance is fused directly into critical components like the fuel pump or the braking system. You cannot just pull out some wires in the dashboard. If you disconnected these things the car is unlikely to work. These details have been covered by people who have worked in the industry
Ahhh sorry but since a few years ago they all have automatic internet access for safety “reasons” which… we need a name for sucking air in through the teeth they abuse thoroughly. And even long before that, the data is stored in the vehicle for upload when a connection is made… unless you want to build a faraday cage around your car, you’re tracked at a creepy level.
I think after the big degoogeling, we have to have to talk about the cars. I seriously wonder if their eu versions even are flashed without the more disturbing trackers. I seriously doubt there is any concern over it even since it is not talked about. Like they said in the article, this needs to rile people
A Faraday cage won’t work, because your mechanic is going to plug it into an Internet connected computer.
Psyche! My mechanic is in a faraday cage and he only uses tor to buy spare parts… I think …
Please tell me where I can find this mechanic
He’s pretty hard to reach… So to speak
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the sensors store data locally and then get uploaded to the Internet when you take it to a mechanic, who plugs your car into an internet-connected computer
How is the old Zoe there? It even asks for consent for maps data.
